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Sam Peckinpah >> Everything Peckinpah and more >> The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
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Message started by Novecento on 03/15/14 at 11:26pm

Title: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 03/15/14 at 11:26pm
One thing that I really don't understand is why when Sam's cut was re-edited, they completely destroyed one of the best sequences of the movie. In Sam's version, the main characters are introduced in a brilliant sequence that cross-cuts between Tanner's three friends and Tanner on his TV show. In the re-edited version, this cross-cutting is removed for a more chronological sequence that is simply boring by comparison (and also removes the introduction of Chris Sarandon's character). It's mind-boggling to me how anyone could have thought the re-edited version better and more likely to appeal to the public.

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Robert Blenheim on 03/16/14 at 6:15pm
I agree with you there, Novecento.  But, I hate to point this out, but Peckinpah's version of the beginning killing was not only bad, it was almost unwatchable.  On a less important point, the last scene of the film re-edited seems to improve the Peckinpah original cut -- it even seems more 'Peckinpavian'!

His health at the time was degenerating, and it seems his mind was rather cloudy as well as befuddled.  And this comes from one who HATES to see Peckinpah's original versions tampered with.

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 03/20/14 at 9:27pm

Robert Blenheim wrote on 03/16/14 at 6:15pm:
I agree with you there, Novecento.

I just can't believe no one makes a bigger deal about it. This sequence totally gives Peckinpah carte blanche to claim the studio messed up his film.


Robert Blenheim wrote on 03/16/14 at 6:15pm:
But, I hate to point this out, but Peckinpah's version of the beginning killing was not only bad, it was almost unwatchable. 

I not particularly fond of either, but I'd still take the Peckinpah one over the theatrical one. It is more sexual but less gruesome (not sure why this would make it less palatable to audiences :-?), and while the distortion doesn't look great, at least it adds a certain level of intrigue.


Robert Blenheim wrote on 03/16/14 at 6:15pm:
On a less important point, the last scene of the film re-edited seems to improve the Peckinpah original cut...

I actually would disagree here also. The theatrical version removes that clever cut where we see Fasset raising his gun on the screen and we expect to cut to Tanner being at the door about to shoot him, but instead we cut to reality with Tanner opening the door to find his wife and kid.


Robert Blenheim wrote on 03/16/14 at 6:15pm:
...-- it even seems more 'Peckinpavian'!

How so?

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Robert Blenheim on 03/21/14 at 7:29pm
I have to watch it again, Novecento, but the timing is better, as is the irony.  Peckinpah was sick and not at his best when he worked on this.

When I watch it again, I'll be able to detail why I felt that way better.  I actually spent an entire day years ago studying both versions of the film alternately (when the double DVD set came out) and even took notes.  I haven't seen the film again since then.  (Not surprisingly, it's one of my least favorite Peckinpah films -- even, probably, my very least.)

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Gashade on 03/22/14 at 1:17am
Actually, you may end up pushing me to watch it again too...

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Robert Blenheim on 03/22/14 at 11:49am
One more comment on the beginning scene:  All the distortion Peckinpah used would have undoubtedly sent audiences out of the auditorium to ask for their money back.   I believe it's Peckinpah showing such contempt for the audiences and saying, "F--- you!"   I think he was out of it completely editing that scene that way. I believe, It would have been the most embarrassing scene in the Peckinpah canon to his fans had it been shown that way.

Nevertheless, it would be interesting for both of us to check out both versions again, particularly the ending.  Besides, there's always things we can find in even the lesser Peckinpah films that show genius.

(By the way, how do you put boxes around what you're commenting on?  I'm not the computer person to know this!)

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 03/22/14 at 3:11pm
I prefer to think Peckinpah was just trying something new with the intro that unfortunately did not really work (films like The Ballad of Cable Hogue, The Getaway or Junior Bonner are ones where it did work).

In any case, the intro and ending are minor issues. My main quibble is with the long sequence introducing the characters which was effectively ruined in the theatrical cut.


Robert Blenheim wrote on 03/22/14 at 11:49am:
(By the way, how do you put boxes around what you're commenting on?  I'm not the computer person to know this!)

Hit the quote button on the top right of the posting you want to quote. Then just delete any irrelevant parts. If you want to use multiple boxes just copy and paste the [quote author..] and [/quote] boxes around the specific sections.

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Robert Blenheim on 03/23/14 at 9:15am

[/quote]
Hit the quote button on the top right of the posting you want to quote. Then just delete any irrelevant parts. If you want to use multiple boxes just copy and paste the [quote author..] and [/quote] boxes around the specific sections.
[/quote]


OOPS!   I STILL don't get it!!!!


Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Robert Blenheim on 03/23/14 at 9:20am

Novecento wrote on 03/22/14 at 3:11pm:
Hit the quote button on the top right of the posting you want to quote. Then just delete any irrelevant parts. If you want to use multiple boxes just copy and paste the ...  boxes around the specific sections.


Thanks, Novecento!

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Stanton on 03/23/14 at 9:42am

Robert Blenheim wrote on 03/23/14 at 9:15am:

OOPS!   I STILL don't get it!!!!


Just delete the / in the [/quote] at the beginning of the quoted part.

You use [quote] at the beginning without the slash and with the slash at the end.

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Gashade on 03/23/14 at 10:44am
There is a "Quote" button on the right of each contribution to the forum. Once you click on it, you can also copy the code it's offering you and paste it into a larger text.

Personnaly, Peckinpah's blurred surveilance camera opening is less sleasy to me and makes more sense given the film's theme...

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Robert Blenheim on 03/23/14 at 8:10pm

Gashade wrote on 03/23/14 at 10:44am:
Personnaly, Peckinpah's blurred surveilance camera opening is less sleasy to me and makes more sense given the film's theme...


Respectfully, I think justifying the scene and its pretentious unwatchability by connecting it to any theme is pushing it.  It would be like saying a director who's nihilistic could justify putting the camera on the floor for two hours and not even point it at anything.

It seems obvious to me that this scene in 'Peckinpah's cut' (I question if it really is a serious cut!) is something Peckinpah did to screw with his critics and producers (and maybe his audiences) knowing full well it could never be shown that way. (And I don't think it ever could.)

PS: Thanks so much, Gashade!  I think I get it now, about the quote boxes!

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 05/31/14 at 6:03am

Gashade wrote on 03/23/14 at 10:44am:
Personnaly, Peckinpah's blurred surveilance camera opening is less sleasy to me and makes more sense given the film's theme...



I wonder if Peckinpah was trying to achieve what Saul Bass did with Frankenheimer on "Seconds" (1966). This of course ties back to my comments about Saul Bass' work on Frankenheimer's "Grand Prix" (1966) and The Ballad of Cable Hogue...


Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Gashade on 02/06/15 at 8:30pm

Robert Blenheim wrote on 03/23/14 at 8:10pm:

Gashade wrote on 03/23/14 at 10:44am:
Personnaly, Peckinpah's blurred surveilance camera opening is less sleasy to me and makes more sense given the film's theme...


Respectfully, I think justifying the scene and its pretentious unwatchability by connecting it to any theme is pushing it.  It would be like saying a director who's nihilistic could justify putting the camera on the floor for two hours and not even point it at anything.!


Ozu, anyone?

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 02/21/15 at 2:00pm
Good point!

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 03/11/15 at 8:53pm
Sounds like this is getting a Blu-ray release in May:

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Let's hope they keep everything they had on the original DVD.

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 03/27/15 at 9:23pm
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Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 05/10/15 at 10:55am
Still no word on the specs for the new BD. There's only a week to go...

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 05/17/15 at 4:20pm
Going by the last few posts, it looks like I'm having a conversation with myself here  :D . Well, I guess I'll just keep on keeping myself company...

DVD Beaver gave the new BD an ok review

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However, it's getting a bashing from a few people on the blu-ray.com forum:

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It also doesn't include the Peckinpah cut that was on the 2nd disc of the DVD set. It's not that it would have looked any better on BD, but it would have been nice to have it all in one place.

Looking at the old captures from the Peckinpah cut on DVD, I noticed that it hasn't been cropped as heavily on the width as you'd expect for a full-screen version, but has actually been opened up quite a lot vertically instead. Given that many of the changes between the Peckinpah and theatrical cuts involve different cutting orders as much as new content, and that there isn't a huge amount of new content anyway, leads me to an idea...

Could someone perhaps re-cut the theatrical version to match the Peckinpah cut as closely as possible and then use scenes from the Peckinpah cut where additional content is needed? Of course the quality of those scenes/shots will be very significantly compromised, but they did something of this nature for the extended cut of Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in America and while the added scenes do stand out (some more than others), it is still a great thing to have.


Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by mike bishop on 05/18/15 at 6:52am
Thanks for keeping us informed here!
I'm quite busy these months, not much time to do anything else...

I did not contribute to that release because I never covered that title
a lot while filming PASSION & POETRY. The long documentary
FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA was already in the making back then
and I rather filmed Ernie, RG, LQ & co then the Osterman ''youngsters''
like Rutger Hauer (nice man!) and the others. Lancaster was already gone. Anyway, I think that filmed is covered quite well with
that documentary...
An extended cut would be fun, I agree.
Sounds like a project for cold winter nights.
Another Sam Blu-ray is always a reason to celebrate! I hope HIGH COUNTRY, PAT GARRETT & BONNER will be availablein the (near) future as well.


Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 05/22/15 at 10:50pm
Yes I remember it being an interesting documentary. Not that another Passion & Poetry installment wouldn't have been nice though...

I didn't actually mean an "extended" cut, but rather trying to create the highest quality version possible of the Peckinpah cut. That is to say use the theatrical footage and re-cut it to the specs of the Peckinpah cut as much as possible. The remaining footage would then need to be taken from the original "full-screen" Peckinpah cut and cleaned up as much as possible.

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 06/07/15 at 10:25am
So Blu-ray.com just trashed the transfer:

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I think I'll stick to my DVD copy with the Peckinpah cut included.

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Novecento on 01/28/17 at 9:27am
Apparently John Hurt (played Lawrence Fassett) just died.

I always thought he was great in "Heaven's Gate" by the way.

Title: Re: The Osterman Weekend - Sam's First Cut
Post by Gashade on 01/30/17 at 11:43pm
RIP
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