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Message started by Robert Blenheim on 02/19/15 at 8:50am

Title: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Robert Blenheim on 02/19/15 at 8:50am
I've just started Paul Seydor's brilliant new book on Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid and it's amazing!   I'll post more on it later, but it's not just a must-have for all Peckinpah aficionados, but anyone interested in either Western history or film studies in general.  I advise everyone here to read it!

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Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Novecento on 02/21/15 at 1:51pm
Yes I'm reading it too and so far I'm really enjoying it. I'm still working through the initial chapters where he sets the context. I'm definitely looking forward to discussing it here once I've finished reading it.

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Stanton on 02/21/15 at 2:09pm
Hmm. my copy won't be shipped before the beginning of March.

grrrr ...

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by stepeanut on 03/07/15 at 3:40pm
Finally received my paperback copy yesterday.  Not had a chance to dive in yet.

Did anyone here spring for the hardback?  It was very expensive compared with the paperback; some three-and-a-half times the price.  It'd have to be a pretty special edition for me to justify that additional cost.

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Novecento on 03/09/15 at 8:28pm
So long as the content is the same, I'm more than happy with a paperback :)

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Stanton on 03/15/15 at 7:34am
I'm reading, I'm reading, I'm reading ...

An observation:

The credits list 6 editors for PG&BtK. But even in this big book, and with a lot of pages spent to the editing, 3 of them are never mentioned.

What was their contribution?

How comes that Peckinpah was pissed of about Wolfe and Spottiswoode, but worked with Tony de Zaraga, one of the other 3, again on The Killer Elite?

I also think that the editing of the theatrical version is superior to the preview version, but I also still think that some of the scenes involving violence are not intercut like Peckinpah always did in his other films. The killing of Silva for example seems to me wrong in that respect. But it is basically the same scene in both versions

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Novecento on 03/15/15 at 11:48am
You need to keep reading...  :)


Stanton wrote on 03/15/15 at 7:34am:
The credits list 6 editors for PG&BtK. But even in this big book, and with a lot of pages spent to the editing, 3 of them are never mentioned.

What was their contribution?


He mentions later on that Spottiswoode, Wolfe and Craven were the only ones of the 6 who actually worked on it.


Stanton wrote on 03/15/15 at 7:34am:
How comes that Peckinpah was pissed of about Wolfe and Spottiswoode, but worked with Tony de Zaraga, one of the other 3, again on The Killer Elite?


Again later on he mentions that Peckinpah was angry with Wolfe for editing the theatrical cut, and that Spottiswoode clashed with Peckinpah for his treatment of Wolfe in this regard.

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Stanton on 03/15/15 at 3:23pm

Novecento wrote on 03/15/15 at 11:48am:

Stanton wrote on 03/15/15 at 7:34am:
How comes that Peckinpah was pissed of about Wolfe and Spottiswoode, but worked with Tony de Zaraga, one of the other 3, again on The Killer Elite?


Again later on he mentions that Peckinpah was angry with Wolfe for editing the theatrical cut, and that Spottiswoode clashed with Peckinpah for his treatment of Wolfe in this regard.


I know.

But it still seems strange that 3 editors are credited if they had not much or none input on the film.
And this De Zaraga guy isn't mentioned in any Peckinpah book. At least I don't remember reading anything about him

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Novecento on 03/17/15 at 10:17pm

Stanton wrote on 03/15/15 at 3:23pm:
But it still seems strange that 3 editors are credited if they had not much or none input on the film.


You need to read footnote 16 at the bottom of p.348 where Seydor discusses this.


Stanton wrote on 03/15/15 at 3:23pm:
And this De Zaraga guy isn't mentioned in any Peckinpah book. At least I don't remember reading anything about him


Seydor mentions that the other 3 (of which De Zarraga is one) were "additional hands" rather than functioning in any creative sense. Perhaps De Zarraga served a similar role on The Killer Elite which also had multiple editors (one of whom was Monte Hellman who presumably played a major role).

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Stanton on 03/18/15 at 9:24am
I read that before, and I assumed that it was related to the fact that Spottiswoode is a Brit.
And I know that film credits are not always telling the facts.

Still it is strange that there are 3 editors named of whom we do not know much.

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Novecento on 04/07/15 at 9:07pm
[quote author=5F4F414843454844402D0 link=1244894863/52#52 date=1428446657]Here is the link to my review of Paul Seydor's new book that I posted today on Amazon.com.

Everyone here should definitely get a copy.  It's a must-read!

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I enjoyed it too. It had far more historical context behind the screenplay than I was expecting, but it was all very welcome! Definitely money well spent.

While I am still not a huge fan of the 2005 Special Edition, it was great to learn all the context behind it and the reasoning behind Seydor's choices as an embellishment of his previous short article. In this regard it was also interesting to note how Seydor's hand were tied to a degree.

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Robert Blenheim on 04/08/15 at 4:49pm

Quote:
While I am still not a huge fan of the 2005 Special Edition, it was great to learn all the context behind it and the reasoning behind Seydor's choices as an embellishment of his previous short article. In this regard it was also interesting to note how Seydor's hand were tied to a degree.


Agree completely, Novecento. 

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Robert Blenheim on 04/08/15 at 4:52pm
Here is the link to my review of Paul Seydor's new book that I posted today on Amazon.com.

Everyone here should definitely get a copy.  It's a must-read!

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Paul Seydor on 04/27/15 at 5:14pm
Thanks kindly, Robert, for your generous review of my book on Amazon.com. As regards some of the questions here: Tony De Zaraga, if you check his credits, went on to have a career in television with only a relative few feature credits. On Killer Elite he probably helped out some, but Garth Craven and Ferris Webster were the original editors, and Webster one day just quit, evidently daunted by the sheer amount of coverage, saying to Garth, "I'm too old for this kind of thing," and left the project. The next time I see Garth, which will be soon, I'll ask him about Zaraga, but I suspect what I've said here is correct: he was employed by Sam as a helping hand but never as a principal editor. Sam confined Monte Hellman almost exclusively to the martial arts footage, of which fairly little remained in the completed film. (This I got directly from Monte.) As I say, the three additional editors were there as helping hands, not as functioning editors in any serious creative sense, and because Spottiwoode and Craven were--theoretically, anyhow--not permitted to touch film in the US. This was eventually ignored, but it does give an idea of how chaotic the post was on this film.
By the way, if any reader wants the full information, it is absolutely vital in this book that he or she READ THE ENDNOTES. The story was too multifaceted for me to tell it in any other way than to add a lot of material in the endnotes.

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by Paul Seydor on 04/27/15 at 6:01pm
The reason for the expense of the hardcover is that it is a special version made up only for libraries. There is no dust jacket. The primary launch is in trade (i.e., large) paperback and content is identical.

Title: Re: Paul Seydor's new Pat Garrett book
Post by mike bishop on 04/28/15 at 4:53am
I just finished it the other night. How could you guys read it that fast ?
A fantastic piece of work, and including all the endnotes it took me quite a while to digest it all. GREAT BOOK !!! Next to Max Evans' latest my favorite book on Sam these last years...

Did you you guys see Sophie Huber's fine film on Harry Dean Stanton? (PARTLY FICTION). In it Kris visits him and they tell a funny story of Bob Dylan and Dean spoiling an important take during PAT GARRETT...

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